Community Centre at Park 51

[501]

I can think of many.  The trouble is.....none of them are going to involve Islam in any way.  And I don't think that's a coincidence.  That's how it goes when you spend a thousand years of almost constant war with someone or another.  And they're building a mosque there, not a cultural center.  They don't want to show Arab culture or history, they want to show Islam.  They want to flaunt Islam on the site where 3000 Americans died at the hands of Islamic militants over Islamic fundamentalist ideals.  I can't think of a scenario where that's not in poor taste.

I have spoken out many times on these boards against Christian and Jewish ideals.  But I have no more disdain for them than I do for Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.  As a concept, religion stands opposed to logic and rationalism.  Free, unbiased thought is the enemy of religion, all religion.  And as religions go, Islam has long been in a competition with Hinduism for the most barbaric in the world.  And at this time in history they've taken a firm lead.

As Hinduism is doing away with it's barbaric ideals like the untouchables, Islam is fighting tooth and nail to hold on to it's barbarism.  Women still have no rights in Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Iran.  They are not allowed to leave their homes without being accompanied by a husband or male member of their family.  They are still prosecuted by the law for being raped.  They are still routinely beaten without any protection by law.  They are not allowed to drive cars.  They are not citizens in their own countries, they are slaves.


How about instead we make a peace center there that is affiliated with no religion and call it Atlantis?  Plato wrote Atlantis to make a fictional city that he so wished Athens was or would eventually become.

Or how about a giant wall with the names of all the people who died there?  If we built a wall to put all the names of people who've died as a direct result of religion we would tip the earth off it's axis.

Are you serious? This whole world is barbaric or was at one point. I guess Northern Europe is trying to sell itself as a peace center of the world. I can't think of any cities in this world where peace has always been.

Flaunt Islam? That's not what I've read about Park 51 community centre. It will contain a memorial section for 9/11 and welcome all religions to worship together. Fitness center, school and office space.



Doesn't look like any "victory" mosque like I've seen.

[Ballhawk]

Are you serious? This whole world is barbaric or was at one point. I guess Northern Europe is trying to sell itself as a peace center of the world. I can't think of any cities in this world where peace has always been.

Flaunt Islam? That's not what I've read about Park 51 community centre. It will contain a memorial section for 9/11 and welcome all religions to worship together. Fitness center, school and office space.



Doesn't look like any "victory" mosque like I've seen.

vegas 

[Poe]

Are you serious? This whole world is barbaric or was at one point. I guess Northern Europe is trying to sell itself as a peace center of the world. I can't think of any cities in this world where peace has always been.

What would matter is that the inhabitants of the city were peaceful.  Peaceful people cannot be blamed for being attacked by barbarians.  Certainly Bombay and Delhi would have qualified had they not been overtaken by violence from Islam.  How about Constantinople?  Wait, also overrun by violent Muslims.  How about Alexandria?  Wait...

Flaunt Islam? That's not what I've read about Park 51 community centre. It will contain a memorial section for 9/11 and welcome all religions to worship together. Fitness center, school and office space.

It's being named after a place that was a beacon of cooperation and coexistence until it was demolished by radical Islam.  Do you not get irony there?  The DNC has lost it's way on this issue.  They need to get their heads on straight.  This is not the kind of issue you use to win elections.  And the RNC needs to grow a pair.  Against all laws of logic they've somehow landed on the right side of an issue for once and they're too scared to even talk about it.

Doesn't look like any "victory" mosque like I've seen.

What would a victory mosque look like?  I'd say putting a Mosque there at all is their victory, they're second victory.  First they kill 3000 Americans there and now they've come to spit on their graves.


501, usually I hate all religions equally.  But Islam I hate a little more than the rest.  It's the whole "kill the infidels" thing that gets me.  Or maybe it's the fact that they systematically brutalize women.  Yes, the world is barbaric, people are barbaric: but when did that become ok if you have the right political leanings?  And when did the Democrats take up the side of these murderous, right wing, totalitarian Arabs?  Am I really supposed to argue with Republicans over which form of right-wing idiocracy is better?

Don't buy the crap you read about "taking the Qu'ron out of context."  I've read the parts that say, "those not of Islam will cause disharmony and should be put to death."  Satanism preaches less violence than Islam.  And that stands to reason because Muhammed was a murderous thief.  That's not rhetoric, read his history.

No mosque.

[Ballhawk]

I hate to say this , but its going to come down to money . Who ever has a bigger check book will get what they wont . Money has no rules and careless about anything else but its self . I wish the world could live with out it , we almost live in a two class society , the rich and everyone else .

[501]

What would matter is that the inhabitants of the city were peaceful.  Peaceful people cannot be blamed for being attacked by barbarians.  Certainly Bombay and Delhi would have qualified had they not been overtaken by violence from Islam.  How about Constantinople?  Wait, also overrun by violent Muslims.  How about Alexandria?  Wait...

It's being named after a place that was a beacon of cooperation and coexistence until it was demolished by radical Islam.  Do you not get irony there?  The DNC has lost it's way on this issue.  They need to get their heads on straight.  This is not the kind of issue you use to win elections.  And the RNC needs to grow a pair.  Against all laws of logic they've somehow landed on the right side of an issue for once and they're too scared to even talk about it.

What would a victory mosque look like?  I'd say putting a Mosque there at all is their victory, they're second victory.  First they kill 3000 Americans there and now they've come to spit on their graves.


501, usually I hate all religions equally.  But Islam I hate a little more than the rest.  It's the whole "kill the infidels" thing that gets me.  Or maybe it's the fact that they systematically brutalize women.  Yes, the world is barbaric, people are barbaric: but when did that become ok if you have the right political leanings?  And when did the Democrats take up the side of these murderous, right wing, totalitarian Arabs?  Am I really supposed to argue with Republicans over which form of right-wing idiocracy is better?

Don't buy the crap you read about "taking the Qu'ron out of context."  I've read the parts that say, "those not of Islam will cause disharmony and should be put to death."  Satanism preaches less violence than Islam.  And that stands to reason because Muhammed was a murderous thief.  That's not rhetoric, read his history.

No mosque.

So there are no cities in the world we could list as an example for peace and understanding because this whole world is barbaric. Ancient Pagan, Romans, Catholics whomever at one time or another were barbaric. That was all centuries ago.

You're confusing the Muslim religion with Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda is not building a community center. If people want to be religious then I could care less. When people want to deny freedom it's a different story. I don't think having a world class community center there will really hurt anyone.

[Poe]

So there are no cities in the world we could list as an example for peace and understanding because this whole world is barbaric. Ancient Pagan, Romans, Catholics whomever at one time or another were barbaric. That was all centuries ago.

You're confusing the Muslim religion with Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda is not building a community center. If people want to be religious then I could care less. When people want to deny freedom it's a different story. I don't think having a world class community center there will really hurt anyone.

Definitely not confusing anything.  Al Qaeda's agenda is Islamic.  You think there exists a dichotomy of philosophical ideals amongst Islam, that is naive.  The general public in Saudi Arabia was filmed cheering and chanting when they saw the towers fall.  The same is true of every predominantly Muslim nation.

This is not centuries ago, that is the point.  Here in the most enlightened time mankind has ever known, Islam lives in the dark ages.  And they are willing to kill and die to make certain it stays that way.  How can that possibly be defended as a cultural trait?  These aren't Klingons fighting for honor and glory, they're cowards who blow up buses and markets with women and children.

I have a Palestinian friend and as you know I often speak strongly against Israel and the Jews.  Don't mistake that as support for Islam.  It's a backward religion that promotes backward thought and murderous behavior and by and large, the world would be a better place without it, much better.  My Palestinian friend is not religious and he has no better to say about Islam than I do, at least not much.  I suppose being who he is and where he's from he probably prefers it to Judaism but the reasons for those biases are obvious.

Fundamentalism is bad, period.  And in the year 2010, Islam is the paragon of fundamentalism.

[501]

[not]

Definitely not confusing anything.  Al Qaeda's agenda is Islamic.  You think there exists a dichotomy of philosophical ideals amongst Islam, that is naive.  The general public in Saudi Arabia was filmed cheering and chanting when they saw the towers fall.  The same is true of every predominantly Muslim nation.

This is not centuries ago, that is the point.  Here in the most enlightened time mankind has ever known, Islam lives in the dark ages.  And they are willing to kill and die to make certain it stays that way.  How can that possibly be defended as a cultural trait?  These aren't Klingons fighting for honor and glory, they're cowards who blow up buses and markets with women and children.

I have a Palestinian friend and as you know I often speak strongly against Israel and the Jews.  Don't mistake that as support for Islam.  It's a backward religion that promotes backward thought and murderous behavior and by and large, the world would be a better place without it, much better.  My Palestinian friend is not religious and he has no better to say about Islam than I do, at least not much.  I suppose being who he is and where he's from he probably prefers it to Judaism but the reasons for those biases are obvious.

Fundamentalism is bad, period.  And in the year 2010, Islam is the paragon of fundamentalism.

I disagree. There are alot of good people here in America who are Muslim and they still have the right to practice their religion in this country. Al Qaeda does not represent the views of Muslims here in America. Saudi Arabia and Iran do not represent the views of Muslims in America.

People have a right to choose religion in this country even if it's something feared or hated by others as long as they abide by our laws.

[Poe]

[not]

I disagree. There are alot of good people here in America who are Muslim and they still have the right to practice their religion in this country. Al Qaeda does not represent the views of Muslims here in America. Saudi Arabia and Iran do not represent the views of Muslims in America.

There are a lot of Nazis who never participated in violence.  What does that mean?  The men who flew the planes into the towers were "Muslims in America."  What does that mean?

People have a right to choose religion in this country even if it's something feared or hated by others as long as they abide by our laws.

And I'm all about the rights of the minority.  But let's remember, Islam isn't feared and hated for no reason.  It's feared and hated because it preaches violence against others.  Hinduism is abhorrent to it's own but benign to others.  You don't see any Americans gathering in groups to protest Hinduism.

I'm not suggesting for a second that we ban Islam in America, that would only serve to further their cause.  But I cannot/will not take the position of my fellow liberal Democrats that Islam is benevolent save for a few extremists, it's just not true.  For the most part, Christianity, Judaism and Islam follow many of the same texts, the Old Testament.  The difference is that Islam is the only one of the three to act upon the barbarism suggested in the Old Testamant literally.  Once the teachings start to deviate you have Muhammed saying to kill the infidels.

IMHO, religion altogether is mostly bad.  But most religions have a few redeeming qualities.  Islam has none.

[501]

At least we agree that religions are the cause of alot of the idiocy and hatred throughout the world. I can see the hatred brewing over this Community Centre and it's probably leading up to an eruption of some sort if the fighting of the old men in DC is any precursor then I'm sure of it.


If this project continues to grow protest and causes more hate than good then it would be in good taste for the pioneers of this project to rethink this whole mess.

[501]

Keith Olbermann agrees.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZpT2Muxoo0

I can't embed. -html- keeps disappearing.

[Poe]

[LIE]

Keith Olbermann agrees.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZpT2Muxoo0

I can't embed. -html- keeps disappearing.

I'll check on the html thing.

That's a great speech by The Olbermann.  Like I said, the Democrats are on the wrong side of this issue.  I see why, but I would wish for more foresight from them.

As Democrats, my party believes that freedom ends at one point or another.  Where that point actually lies is the never ending debate amongst liberals that's been going on since classical liberalism turned into libertarianism -- but we all agree that any society cannot have absolute freedom.  Absolute freedom means no government.  We are a society because of government.

And Keith has a big precept entirely wrong in his line of thinking.  I DO NOT speak out when someone comes for your bible, or Torah, or Qu'ron.  I speak out when they come for people.  I believe if they burned every single religious text in the world it would be a better place.  Maybe for once people would have to accept silly notions like science and experience over beLIEf if that were to happen.

Citing churches, synagogs and mosques that are already in the area is just bad rhetoric.  It's the point of building it now.  Why there?  Why there if it has no connection to 9/11?  Why not in Philadelphia or Los Angeles?  It just so happens?  Don't piss on my head and tell me it's raining.  It's there, at that site for a reason, to improve the image of Islam after Islamics killed 3000 Americans at that site.

If Islam wants to improve it's image how about we insist that it stops murdering people instead?  How about if we demand that Islam grants equal rights to women?  How about if we start holding radical clerics to the same standard we hold mafia and gang leaders to instead of granting them immunity because they're waving some silly book of idiotic fairy tales?

I hear the Nazis want to build a community center at Auschwitz, think that's ok?  They will only preach their hatred on the top two floors and will provide basketball and cooking instruction.  So it should be ok, right?  I mean it's just a belief system and not all Nazis kill people, right?


This is not a matter of Islam versus Christianity or even Judeo-Christian principles.  This is not Islam versus the USA.  Islam wants more than anything the death of occidentalism.  They want to end western thought.  Nothing short of that will satiate them.  It's not ok for our government to take a stand against any religion.  But as American people, we have to understand that we have an enemy that means to destroy all that we have decided is important.

Their countries are the worst in the world.  They rule by religion and their leaders are killed if they dare take even a small stand against that (see: Anwar Sadat).  They chop off your hand for stealing.  They brutally whip and imprison women for being raped.  They are cattle that has been brainwashed by an ugly religion for thousands of years and they want no part of compromise.  Nothing short of the death of western life will make them happy.  There is no appeasing them with mosques and freedom.  They will use them to continue the fight to destroy occidentalism.

We are in a fight to the death with Islam and the only people who seem to really know that are Islamic.

[Rick]

The Community Centre notwithstanding, I think we may have a way of defeating the militant Islamists by letting them rot from within.  We have to stop being blackmailed by the Saudis and the Pakistanis for a start.  We kiss the shoes of the Saudis because we covet the oil they sit on.  We kiss the Pakistani's' arses because we don't want to allow the extremists to take-over Pakistan's nuclear weapons.  We kiss the asses of the Israelis because they are "a good ally".  We invade Islamic countries, etc.  Every policy the US has plays into the hands of the Jihadists.  We are making their job too easy.  Add a few bombings gone awry, and we are losing ground constanly.  We have got to change at least some of our policies.  We need to leave their countries, stop bombing them, and stop invading them, tell Israel to piss-off, and lead by example-for once.  To say we are a free country and have rights to our beliefs, we can't deny a Community Centre on land owned by Islamic people.  We are acting like the Jihadists.  We don't have to be at war with Islam, but the way we are going about our big-stick diplomacy, we are helping the bad guys recruit more cohorts.  I can name so many instances and so many countries that have been torn-apart by religious strife.  Let's not let it happen here.  When we have these extreme voices shouting into megaphones in NY against people who are not the  people who attacked us on 9-11, but just happen to have the same religion, we are no better than the sicko extremists we are fighting in Afghanistan.  Let's not give into the extremists on either side of the issue and throw away what has made our country great.  I happened to serve in Vietnam.  We were told we had to stop Communism from taking over South Vietnam so that it wouldn't spread further.  We left the Communists took over, and guess what?  I'm buying more and more stuff with "Made in Vietnam" labels.  We don't need war to settle our differences.  We need sane policies and understanding the people of both sides of every issue, not just what satisfies our businesses and special interests.  Liberty and freedoms for all.

[Poe]

The Community Centre notwithstanding, I think we may have a way of defeating the militant Islamists by letting them rot from within.  We have to stop being blackmailed by the Saudis and the Pakistanis for a start.  We kiss the shoes of the Saudis because we covet the oil they sit on.  We kiss the Pakistani's' arses because we don't want to allow the extremists to take-over Pakistan's nuclear weapons.  We kiss the asses of the Israelis because they are "a good ally".  We invade Islamic countries, etc.  Every policy the US has plays into the hands of the Jihadists.  We are making their job too easy.  Add a few bombings gone awry, and we are losing ground constanly.  We have got to change at least some of our policies.  We need to leave their countries, stop bombing them, and stop invading them, tell Israel to piss-off, and lead by example-for once.  To say we are a free country and have rights to our beliefs, we can't deny a Community Centre on land owned by Islamic people.  We are acting like the Jihadists.  We don't have to be at war with Islam, but the way we are going about our big-stick diplomacy, we are helping the bad guys recruit more cohorts.  I can name so many instances and so many countries that have been torn-apart by religious strife.  Let's not let it happen here.  When we have these extreme voices shouting into megaphones in NY against people who are not the  people who attacked us on 9-11, but just happen to have the same religion, we are no better than the sicko extremists we are fighting in Afghanistan.  Let's not give into the extremists on either side of the issue and throw away what has made our country great.  I happened to serve in Vietnam.  We were told we had to stop Communism from taking over South Vietnam so that it wouldn't spread further.  We left the Communists took over, and guess what?  I'm buying more and more stuff with "Made in Vietnam" labels.  We don't need war to settle our differences.  We need sane policies and understanding the people of both sides of every issue, not just what satisfies our businesses and special interests.  Liberty and freedoms for all.

And usually I am 110% behind this line of thinking.  For the most part I am on this issue as well.  I agree with cutting all ties with the so-called sons of Isaac and Ismael.  Let them fight it out once and for all and leave the rest of us out of it.  The Jews chose to go back there so they chose their own fate.  We could have bought them twice as much land in Africa, but they wanted to be close to their god or whatever.  Which only helps prove they aren't any smarter than the Muslims.  But this would not end it, only delay it.

I never suggested that we deny them the right to build it.  It would be easy enough to speak out against it in congress from both sides of the aisle.  It is in poor taste.  I don't care how you slice it, 3000 Americans died at the hands of Islamics at that site.  Building an Islamic center to improve Islamic image on that site is in poor taste.  It's NOT going to improve their image, it's going to seal in stone they're lack of sympathy and respect for those dead.

I keep hearing the terrorists and Islam "just happen to have the same religion."  But that is like saying Nazis just happen to wear the same symbols as Hitler.  They were acting directly upon the religion.  It was the religion causing them to act.  It's not like some people from a book club robbed a bank and we're blaming the book club.  These men were acting upon words out of the Qu'ron.  All the members of ATWA were rounded up by the FBI.  So if we give peyote to the Muslims is it ok to treat them as a single hostile entity?  Is it the age of their "religion?"  Is it ok to teach hate so long as it's read from an old book?

This is not a culture we want in America.  These are a backward people who have proven time and time again that they will kill or die to remain backward.  They want us out of their countries because we're giving their women "ideas."  That is against their religion, women having ideas at all much less that the ideas be of justice and equality.  They aren't just patriarchal, they're barbaric to women.  They are quite literally the scourge of the earth.

We should act within American law and do exactly as we have always done when it comes to Muslims or anyone else.  But at the same time, we should not begin a program of acquiescence with Islam just because they have threatened to blow up our women and children if we don't.  We should stand up and say that we DO NOT approve of their ways.  We should stand firm on the policies of protecting their women from violence here in America, whether the women say they want our help or not.  We should pull their children out of their homes in any situation similar to that of a non religious situation.  A child was just removed from his home in New Jersey because his parent named him Adolph.  Think the Muslims are held to the same standard?  No, i doubt it.  Evidently if you can prove your hatred was written a while ago, instead of prosecuting you we will use the constitution to protect you.

Our message to Islam should be the same as our message to everyone else, freedom and equality.  Those are words of evil to Islam.

I agree at this point with the Republican stance that if we pull out of their countries, they will bring the fight here.  They are not going to quit until western thought is dead.

[AmpleSound]

I know what you mean about spreading the evangelical.  It gets annoying, I get that.  But that's another of those things that we have to accept as an unfortunate byproduct of freedom of expression.  Here's what i do, oppose them radically.  When the Jehovah's Witnesses come onto your walkway don't just hold your hand up and say, "no, thank you."  Point, walk toward them aggressively and shout, "get the hell off my property."  That's another of those American rights.

   Sounds like my grandpa and he's a very religious man.  I on the other hand like battling with them, as I have faith, and do no such with religion.  It's quite entertaining to me.