Community Centre at Park 51

[501]

There's a proposed community center to be built 2 blocks down from the WTC site. It will have a mosque inside of it. The community centre will be run by Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf who's main goal is to improve relations between the Muslim world and the West. It is being touted by Ny residents and other opponents as a shrine for the 9/11 Bombing, sort of like a victory mosque. It is almost ready to begin building. Why are people being so harsh towards muslims?

[Poe]

There's a proposed community center to be built 2 blocks down from the WTC site. It will have a mosque inside of it. The community centre will be run by Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf who's main goal is to improve relations between the Muslim world and the West. It is being touted by Ny residents and other opponents as a shrine for the 9/11 Bombing, sort of like a victory mosque. It is almost ready to begin building. Why are people being so harsh towards muslims?

The choice for a name is in poor taste.  It references a mosque that was built over a demolished church at the site of a massacre of Christians at the hands of Muslims in Europe.  How did they think that was going to go over?

[501]

So what should modern Christians think when they hear a Muslim use the word "Cordoba"?  Well, I know that Newt hasn't been a Catholic for very long now, but maybe his priest ought to direct him to read a little thing called "The Catholic Encyclopedia".  Allow me to quote from the 1917 edition (which has the virtue of being in the public domain and easily searchable) and its entry on Cordoba:

In 786 the Arab caliph, Abd-er Rahman I, began the construction of the great mosque of Cordova, now the cathedral, and compelled many Christians to take part in the preparation of the site and foundations. Though they suffered many vexations, the Christians continued to enjoy freedom of worship, and this tolerant attitude of the ameers seduced not a few Christians from their original allegiance. Both Christians and Arabs co-operated at this time to make Cordova a flourishing city, the elegant refinement of which was unequalled in Europe.

I've been reading about this and the whole thing isn't as clear cut as people think..

Still, the Muslims did "transform" a Christian church, didn't they?  Possibly, but only in a very qualified sense.  Most standard histories of Cordoba will note that the Great Mosque is built on the site of the Basilica of St Vincent, Martyr, a Visigothic church that was itself built on the ruins of a Roman pagan temple.  And archaeological work has confirmed that the present site of the Mosque did at one time belong to some sort of Christian church.  There's no indication that the present-day structure included any elements from that church, though, and exactly when it was razed and under what circumstances is unclear.


http://gotmedieval.blogspot.com/2010/08/professor-newts-distorted-history.html

[Rick]

[BELIEFS]

All organized religions stink as far as I'm concerned.  Why must people find a need to build big buildings, erect statues, murder, kill, torture, and steal in the name of their BELIEFS?  I believe you should keep your religious beliefs to yourself and leave others to do the same.  As far as the Muslims go, they have never knocked on my door to try to indoctrinate me, so for that I'm grateful.  If they own the property and have the money, let 'em build the thing.  If they break the law, bust their asses.

[501]

[BELIEFS]

All organized religions stink as far as I'm concerned.  Why must people find a need to build big buildings, erect statues, murder, kill, torture, and steal in the name of their BELIEFS?  I believe you should keep your religious beliefs to yourself and leave others to do the same.  As far as the Muslims go, they have never knocked on my door to try to indoctrinate me, so for that I'm grateful.  If they own the property and have the money, let 'em build the thing.  If they break the law, bust their asses.

 

You're crazy as a shit house rat! 

[Poe]

[BELIEFS]

All organized religions stink as far as I'm concerned.  Why must people find a need to build big buildings, erect statues, murder, kill, torture, and steal in the name of their BELIEFS?  I believe you should keep your religious beliefs to yourself and leave others to do the same.  As far as the Muslims go, they have never knocked on my door to try to indoctrinate me, so for that I'm grateful.  If they own the property and have the money, let 'em build the thing.  If they break the law, bust their asses.

All that makes perfect sense to me.  It's true that Christians have tried to assimilate me into their narrow views and silly beliefs my whole life while Muslims and Jews have never tried.  But I suspect that has more to do with where I was born and where I've lived than it does with the natures of the belief systems.  I suspect a logical person capable of rational thought who is born in Jordan or Saudi Arabia would have a different perspective.

What I do know is that all three tend to favor killing members of the other two to assimilating them.  None of the three will even consider the possibility of allowing people to think for themselves.

[501]

I think I hate Christians enough to be a Muslim now. I just want a place where my kids can play without hearing about Jesus. The Ground Zero Mosque is a splendid thorn in the side of Christianity.

Isn't every city in Europe a site where christians, pagans, jew or muslims massacred?

[Ballhawk]

not all Christians are bad , i believe in God and Jesus , I talk to god on my own time . I am sure he understands , I have not been to church in years and i read the bible and interpret in my own way .

as for the topic , its private property and the owner can do as he please's with the land . I wish they would build it at another location , but thats about as far as i feel about that . I wish them no ill will .

[Poe]

I think I hate Christians enough to be a Muslim now. I just want a place where my kids can play without hearing about Jesus. The Ground Zero Mosque is a splendid thorn in the side of Christianity.

Isn't every city in Europe a site where christians, pagans, jew or muslims massacred?

Certainly many are, but think about it this way.  What if Germans wanted to build a unity temple at ground zero and name it Auschwitz?  How about Indians building a temple called Little Bighorn?  I'm betting everyone would be up in arms about it then.  How about if Republicans wanted to build an office building at Kent State university called the Marshall Law Center?  I'm betting Democrats would find that to be in poor taste.

What if the US starts building Christian churches in Baghdad?  How would that go over with the Democrats here and liberals around the world?  We can't do things we don't want the opposition to do, that's manifest hypocrisy.


I know what you mean about spreading the evangelical.  It gets annoying, I get that.  But that's another of those things that we have to accept as an unfortunate byproduct of freedom of expression.  Here's what i do, oppose them radically.  When the Jehovah's Witnesses come onto your walkway don't just hold your hand up and say, "no, thank you."  Point, walk toward them aggressively and shout, "get the hell off my property."  That's another of those American rights.

[501]

I get that. There are cool Christians like Ballhawk so I guess I can live with that.

What's interesting about Cordova House is the fact that the city Cordova was a multi religious haven for over 300 years. Jews, Christians and Muslims lived together in harmony and the city thrived. I read they nicknamed it Little Athens. Then it was invaded by Muslim extremists. The Park 51 centre is supposed to be a multi faith haven named after the city where different religions coexisted peacefully for a little while.

[Poe]

I get that. There are cool Christians like Ballhawk so I guess I can live with that.

What's interesting about Cordova House is the fact that the city Cordova was a multi religious haven for over 300 years. Jews, Christians and Muslims lived together in harmony and the city thrived. I read they nicknamed it Little Athens. Then it was invaded by Muslim extremists. The Park 51 centre is supposed to be a multi faith haven named after the city where different religions coexisted peacefully for a little while.

There certainly wasn't peaceful coexistence in Athens.  Just ask Plato or Socrates.

Hopefully the intent behind the name is good.  At least they didn't try to name it Mecca.

[Ballhawk]

Certainly many are, but think about it this way.  What if Germans wanted to build a unity temple at ground zero and name it Auschwitz?  How about Indians building a temple called Little Bighorn?  I'm betting everyone would be up in arms about it then.  How about if Republicans wanted to build an office building at Kent State university called the Marshall Law Center?  I'm betting Democrats would find that to be in poor taste.

What if the US starts building Christian churches in Baghdad?  How would that go over with the Democrats here and liberals around the world?  We can't do things we don't want the opposition to do, that's manifest hypocrisy.


I know what you mean about spreading the evangelical.  It gets annoying, I get that.  But that's another of those things that we have to accept as an unfortunate byproduct of freedom of expression.  Here's what i do, oppose them radically.  When the Jehovah's Witnesses come onto your walkway don't just hold your hand up and say, "no, thank you."  Point, walk toward them aggressively and shout, "get the hell off my property."  That's another of those American rights.

i was rolling over that one , i bet you dont have many visitors over for dinner LOL .

[501]

"In 962 Abd-er Rahman III was succeeded by his son Al-Hakim. Owing to the peace which the Christians of Cordova then enjoyed [...] the citizens of Cordova, Arabs, Christians, and Jews, enjoyed so high a degree of literary culture that the city was known as the New Athens. From all quarters came students eager to drink at its founts of knowledge. Among the men afterwards famous who studied at Cordova were the scholarly monk Gerbert, destined to sit on the Chair of Peter as Sylvester II (999-1003), the Jewish rabbis Moses and Maimonides, and the famous Spanish-Arabian commentator on Aristotle, Averroes."

I guess they meant well but I can see how Cordova seems like a stupid name. I can't think of one city in the world where peace and understanding were common enough to make a name for it.

[Poe]

"In 962 Abd-er Rahman III was succeeded by his son Al-Hakim. Owing to the peace which the Christians of Cordova then enjoyed [...] the citizens of Cordova, Arabs, Christians, and Jews, enjoyed so high a degree of literary culture that the city was known as the New Athens. From all quarters came students eager to drink at its founts of knowledge. Among the men afterwards famous who studied at Cordova were the scholarly monk Gerbert, destined to sit on the Chair of Peter as Sylvester II (999-1003), the Jewish rabbis Moses and Maimonides, and the famous Spanish-Arabian commentator on Aristotle, Averroes."

I guess they meant well but I can see how Cordova seems like a stupid name. I can't think of one city in the world where peace and understanding were common enough to make a name for it.

I can think of many.  The trouble is.....none of them are going to involve Islam in any way.  And I don't think that's a coincidence.  That's how it goes when you spend a thousand years of almost constant war with someone or another.  And they're building a mosque there, not a cultural center.  They don't want to show Arab culture or history, they want to show Islam.  They want to flaunt Islam on the site where 3000 Americans died at the hands of Islamic militants over Islamic fundamentalist ideals.  I can't think of a scenario where that's not in poor taste.

I have spoken out many times on these boards against Christian and Jewish ideals.  But I have no more disdain for them than I do for Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.  As a concept, religion stands opposed to logic and rationalism.  Free, unbiased thought is the enemy of religion, all religion.  And as religions go, Islam has long been in a competition with Hinduism for the most barbaric in the world.  And at this time in history they've taken a firm lead.

As Hinduism is doing away with it's barbaric ideals like the untouchables, Islam is fighting tooth and nail to hold on to it's barbarism.  Women still have no rights in Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Iran.  They are not allowed to leave their homes without being accompanied by a husband or male member of their family.  They are still prosecuted by the law for being raped.  They are still routinely beaten without any protection by law.  They are not allowed to drive cars.  They are not citizens in their own countries, they are slaves.


How about instead we make a peace center there that is affiliated with no religion and call it Atlantis?  Plato wrote Atlantis to make a fictional city that he so wished Athens was or would eventually become.

Or how about a giant wall with the names of all the people who died there?  If we built a wall to put all the names of people who've died as a direct result of religion we would tip the earth off it's axis.

[Poe]

i was rolling over that one , i bet you dont have many visitors over for dinner LOL .

Not if they're trying to sell me "the word."