Are republicans stupid or evil?

[Ballhawk]

Nope, there are plenty of people who have different ideologies who are great people, much smarter than I am.

I am talking about the MAJORITY of REPUBLICANS. I'm not talking about "conservatives." I'm not talking about "independents." I'm not talking about anything OTHER than Republicans.

And I didn't even say "all republicans." I am talking about a large portion, or majority, or the people that make up that party.

I know this is a lot for you to follow, but please, try to keep up little boy.

Yeah, in some ways, Democrats tell people how to live their lives. But don't Republicans to? "Don't smoke weed...don't be gay...don't have abortions...don't kill yourself, even if you are dying and in pain..."

Democrats do similar stuff, but it just seems to make more sense. You know, stuff like, "don't pollute...don't eat fast food all day..."

dont eat fast food all day WTF , then who will cook for me . Don't pollute , you mean like the oil leak in the golf  .

here is a question , why in haiti everyone came to the rescue and started a fundraiser , but with gulf the same attention is not being given . i don't see save the gulf . Oh thats right its on American soil its ok to trash it .

[Rick]

dont eat fast food all day WTF , then who will cook for me . Don't pollute , you mean like the oil leak in the golf  .

here is a question , why in haiti everyone came to the rescue and started a fundraiser , but with gulf the same attention is not being given . i don't see save the gulf . Oh thats right its on American soil its ok to trash it .

They had to quickly help Haiti to assure that all the earthquake victims stayed in Haiti instead of coming to America and adding to our misery.

[Ballhawk]

They had to quickly help Haiti to assure that all the earthquake victims stayed in Haiti instead of coming to America and adding to our misery.

nice 

[CKFresh]

here is a question , why in haiti everyone came to the rescue and started a fundraiser , but with gulf the same attention is not being given . i don't see save the gulf . Oh thats right its on American soil its ok to trash it .

Perhaps it has something to do with the loss of human life. In Haiti, thousands were dying. In the gulf, not so much.

If you remember back to Katrina, there was quite a bit of fundraising and charitable efforts.

For some reason, the loss of human life inspires charity more so than an ugly mess.

[Ballhawk]

Perhaps it has something to do with the loss of human life. In Haiti, thousands were dying. In the gulf, not so much.

If you remember back to Katrina, there was quite a bit of fundraising and charitable efforts.

For some reason, the loss of human life inspires charity more so than an ugly mess.

Katrina , Bush was on call on that one , that sure went well .

with the oil spill the fishermen of that area are SOL and all the wild life there . There will be huge environment effects , the people of the gulf will suffer for this spill and the clean up and damage it will cost needs support . I am sure if you lived in the area it would more than just an ugly mess ,
out of sight out of mind .

[RIVERS]

Please name one municipality or company that has been 'taken-down' by a union.  I think you are equating blame with cause.  Whenever a company that is unionized goes down it's so easy to blame unions.  Just look at the not too distant past.  Look at the companies that have failed.  I can't think of a one that was union.  Was Enron union?  What caused them to fail?  Lehman Bros.? Unions?  AIG? Unions?  If you look at most of the companies that have failed, whithout exception bad and top-heavy management were the cause.  I worked for a huge utility company.  For every productive worker, we had 10 people who analyed, audited, made poor decisions, and did nothing to accomplish anything other than justify their existance.  When times get bad it's the people out in the trenches that are blamed for the problems.  The gov't is no difference.  The unionized workers are blamed for everything, while all the crony-hired managers are blameless.  The 14th assistant to the 3rd deputy to the associate director is ok.  The mailman is an overpaid slacker, but some do-nothing pencil pusher with no responsibilities is overlooked.  It all comes down to the old saying-"shit rolls down hill".  The people who blame the rank and file workers for all the problems in our economy have been brain-washed by the same people who tell us that Obama doesn't have a birth certificate, will take away our guns, and is to blame for the Gulf oil disaster.  When I retired I was a manager of 413 mostly union workers.  I know how things work.

San Diego California.

[RIVERS]

Nope, there are plenty of people who have different ideologies who are great people, much smarter than I am.

I am talking about the MAJORITY of REPUBLICANS. I'm not talking about "conservatives." I'm not talking about "independents." I'm not talking about anything OTHER than Republicans.

And I didn't even say "all republicans." I am talking about a large portion, or majority, or the people that make up that party.

I know this is a lot for you to follow, but please, try to keep up little boy.

Yeah, in some ways, Democrats tell people how to live their lives. But don't Republicans to? "Don't smoke weed...don't be gay...don't have abortions...don't kill yourself, even if you are dying and in pain..."

Democrats do similar stuff, but it just seems to make more sense. You know, stuff like, "don't pollute...don't eat fast food all day..."

Why don't you just keep it short and say the vast majority of people are smarter than you.

[RIVERS]

Please name one municipality or company that has been 'taken-down' by a union.  I think you are equating blame with cause.  Whenever a company that is unionized goes down it's so easy to blame unions.  Just look at the not too distant past.  Look at the companies that have failed.  I can't think of a one that was union.  Was Enron union?  What caused them to fail?  Lehman Bros.? Unions?  AIG? Unions?  If you look at most of the companies that have failed, whithout exception bad and top-heavy management were the cause.  I worked for a huge utility company.  For every productive worker, we had 10 people who analyed, audited, made poor decisions, and did nothing to accomplish anything other than justify their existance.  When times get bad it's the people out in the trenches that are blamed for the problems.  The gov't is no difference.  The unionized workers are blamed for everything, while all the crony-hired managers are blameless.  The 14th assistant to the 3rd deputy to the associate director is ok.  The mailman is an overpaid slacker, but some do-nothing pencil pusher with no responsibilities is overlooked.  It all comes down to the old saying-"shit rolls down hill".  The people who blame the rank and file workers for all the problems in our economy have been brain-washed by the same people who tell us that Obama doesn't have a birth certificate, will take away our guns, and is to blame for the Gulf oil disaster.  When I retired I was a manager of 413 mostly union workers.  I know how things work.

'Rick' to once again clarify, I was speaking mostly about municipal unions. I feel that many have 'cut deals' that can't be supported and sustained. San Diego is just one example of MANY cities that have current pension underfunding (somewhat normal, to a degree), but are facing catastrophic liabilities in the future. The reason for this (in nearly every City) is that council-people have a conflict of interest and have worked with the Unions they belong to, to create 'sweet-heart' deals, double-dipping early 'opt-outs', and pension pay-outs equal or higher than current salaries, with percentage increases that are GUARANTEED regardless of how the fund performs...during last years market crash San Diego pension workers enjoyed a large percentage increase, while the World, Country, and everyone else's funds took a beating....that is not right by me.

[Rick]

San Diego California.

So, show me how the union did it.

[Rick]

'Rick' to once again clarify, I was speaking mostly about municipal unions. I feel that many have 'cut deals' that can't be supported and sustained. San Diego is just one example of MANY cities that have current pension underfunding (somewhat normal, to a degree), but are facing catastrophic liabilities in the future. The reason for this (in nearly every City) is that council-people have a conflict of interest and have worked with the Unions they belong to, to create 'sweet-heart' deals, double-dipping early 'opt-outs', and pension pay-outs equal or higher than current salaries, with percentage increases that are GUARANTEED regardless of how the fund performs...during last years market crash San Diego pension workers enjoyed a large percentage increase, while the World, Country, and everyone else's funds took a beating....that is not right by me.

Well, did the municipality oversee the pension plan or did the union?  If the union bargained for the pension increases and received them, did they forgive the city of other benefits?  Did they take pay cuts, take more unpaid off days, did they have to pay some of the pension funding?  I don't buy it Rivs.  You can't blame the recipient of a deal for "taking-down" the other party to the deal if they lived-up to their part of the deal.  How is this situation the union "taking down" San Diego?  This is what I've been talking about.  Everyone blames unions for the demise of business and governments, without looking at the total picture.  As a whole, municipal employees, whether union or not, are some of the most under-paid of all workers.  If San Diego has financial problems, I'll bet it is the people in charge of the government, not the workers, who are responsible for the problems in the city.  Can you imagine a large city like San Diego having gas prices to operate all of their vehicles go up 66%+ in a year?  How about the prices of almost everything?  The city must cope with this in a fiscally sound way, not just blame the guys that collect the garbarge or keep the sewers flowing.  It's easier to say no wage increases for the workers even though they have experienced huge inflationary pressures too.  Are we to expect municipal workers to absorb all the tax price increases with no more money in their pockets?  The unions are just an easy target for blame.  Remember the old poem that goes something like this: I can't operate this train, I cannot ring it's bell.  But if it happens to jump the track, see who catches Hell.

[RIVERS]

So, show me how the union did it.

It's a long story. (to very simplify)..but what they basically did was in trade for the Union pension to be well-underfunded (below what any logical actuary would agree to), they forced the City to make guarantees regarding both a system where employees are paid for 5 years AND earn full pensions, if they retire early Employees are able to collect full salary AND full pension (often equal or greater to full salary) for thier last 5 years at thier original position.---(keep in mind that full pensions are at 20 years service), second is that after 20 years service municipal employees are eligable for full benefits even if they accept employment in other city jobs. The next concession (which was ridiculously stupid) is that the pension fund was granted an annual increase automatically (I forget the percentage, but it is extraordinarily high...I think it is +7% or possibly more), this was back in the stock-market 'heyday', but to grant an automatic increase beyond 'cost of living' or performance of the fund itself?---BOGUS.

So, of course when the market tanked so did the value of the Fund...which made the liability of the City towards the pension to skyrocket...which made the City's bond rating to plunge....which made it nearly impossible for the City to borrow money for the last 4 years. Now a City that that can't borrow money goes stagnant, you can't borrow, you can't grow.

So now we have a massive debt, we can't expand and/or raise revenue, there is a huge elephant in the room named "pension"...and we are fucked.

[RIVERS]

Well, did the municipality oversee the pension plan or did the union?  If the union bargained for the pension increases and received them, did they forgive the city of other benefits?  Did they take pay cuts, take more unpaid off days, did they have to pay some of the pension funding?  I don't buy it Rivs.  You can't blame the recipient of a deal for "taking-down" the other party to the deal if they lived-up to their part of the deal.  How is this situation the union "taking down" San Diego?  This is what I've been talking about.  Everyone blames unions for the demise of business and governments, without looking at the total picture.  As a whole, municipal employees, whether union or not, are some of the most under-paid of all workers.  If San Diego has financial problems, I'll bet it is the people in charge of the government, not the workers, who are responsible for the problems in the city.  Can you imagine a large city like San Diego having gas prices to operate all of their vehicles go up 66%+ in a year?  How about the prices of almost everything?  The city must cope with this in a fiscally sound way, not just blame the guys that collect the garbarge or keep the sewers flowing.  It's easier to say no wage increases for the workers even though they have experienced huge inflationary pressures too.  Are we to expect municipal workers to absorb all the tax price increases with no more money in their pockets?  The unions are just an easy target for blame.  Remember the old poem that goes something like this: I can't operate this train, I cannot ring it's bell.  But if it happens to jump the track, see who catches Hell.

'Rick'...Im serious this is what happened...I know---if I didn't live here I'd think it was false and a 'made-up' lie too.

But it is not...it is also what is going on in many cities....they trade underfunded pensions for UNBELIEVABLE concessions that roll the dice against the people they elected to serve.

Believe me...this is happening all over the Country....'Google' around about underfunded pensions. It's going to get serious.


Hey if I told you 8 years ago that all kinds of folks would find themselves in trouble because of how they are buying houses and paying for them?....you may-have 'poo-pooed' me then too.

[RIVERS]

I guess it's happening everywhere.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/02/nj_pension_chris_christie_stat.html

[RIVERS]

If you read the article?...no I don't blame the Union members either (Who wouldn't want what is best for themselves?).

I blame the politicians we hire to serve, and I blame ourselves...all water under the bridge, it's time to fix this shit.

[RIVERS]

Nope, there are plenty of people who have different ideologies who are great people, much smarter than I am.

I am talking about the MAJORITY of REPUBLICANS. I'm not talking about "conservatives." I'm not talking about "independents." I'm not talking about anything OTHER than Republicans.

And I didn't even say "all republicans." I am talking about a large portion, or majority, or the people that make up that party.

I know this is a lot for you to follow, but please, try to keep up little boy.

Yeah, in some ways, Democrats tell people how to live their lives. But don't Republicans to? "Don't smoke weed...don't be gay...don't have abortions...don't kill yourself, even if you are dying and in pain..."

Democrats do similar stuff, but it just seems to make more sense. You know, stuff like, "don't pollute...don't eat fast food all day..."

I appreciate being called a 'little boy'...that was very endearing .  (*sniff)  

When is your birthday 'CK?'...I'll send you some gifts.

Pair of scissors,... a printer, ...and some glue.


You are the "cut", "copy", "paste" boy, after all.  

Forgot something...Why whould you call anyone here a "BOY", 'CK'?...WTF is wrong with you?